banane
Member
Hello,
I have big problems with the wine prices for the Gevrey-Chambertin 2012.
I spoke with different vignerons about the prices 2012. And they are ex-orbitant high.
I do not understand this. The vigerons told me, that hey lost 50% from the grapes. I do not believe this! I never heard from any vigneron, that they lost 50% of the grapes in the Cote de Nuits. I believe this is an argument for the extrem high prices, they will have.
This is a shame.
Goughie13
Member
Banane,
I have a big problem with your post.
The current pricing of Burgundies has been covered at length elsewhere, including by Bill, hence I will not go over the reasons again here but you may need to explore the numerous articles on the subject in published media of all types ? Ultimately though the old economics adage holds true - supply and demand.
I understand 'it', or your 'this', very well though but if you cannot then, please excuse me, but you need to do the research to properly understand matters better ? I know several Cote de Nuits vignerons who lost 50% or more of grapes/juice (you need to consider berry size & concentration as well as grape quantity). You may also need to be aware that some Cote de Nuits vignerons will have less grapes/juice in 2013 than 2012. (I'm assuming you will know all about the Cote de Beaune problems which I'm not including here as you've referred to CdN). You may not (wish to) believe that but I can only say to you its true - like it or not. I worked the harvest in 2013, my sixth, and I know what I saw in the tanks/vats compared to what I saw in 2008/09/10/11. 2013 was pitiful compared to those earlier years - I'm talking about Morey St Denis by the way - Cotes de Nuits, next 'door' to Gevrey-Chambertin. I could not work 2012 but I heard all about it in 2013 and suffice to say when I tried to buy some 2012's from my employer he could not sell me them as he did not have them to sell - due to the paucity of his crop -which was incredible. I also tried to buy some 2010's as my vendange employer normally, in the past, has always had some older vintage bottles. He could not sell me any 2010's - he did not have any. I also spoke to Jeremy Seysses whilst I was in Morey for the vendange. You may care not to believe Jeremy ? But I do, and again he told me 2012 was a real problem, circa 50% or more down, and he went onto say he thought they'd end up with less wine at Dujac for 2013 than 2012. My employer, who's name I care not to divulge, would not put a figure on what he thought his 2013 production would be but he felt it would be similar at best, and he meant drastically down, compared to 2012.
So, you may not believe the vignerons. I do. I've never met a vigneron who is not utterly 'straight' and don't believe I ever will. In terms of wine, as comes from grapes, we are talking about an agricultural product, subject to the vagaries of nature. Your Burgundian domaine family work extremely hard farming all the year round, in all weathers, out doors a lot of the time, and then extremely hard at harvest time for very long and tiring, stressful, days indeed. The family/families that rely on the domaine production have to live, they have to make provision for bad years, they are entitled to charge what the world will pay for their wines, and then there's a bigger world now wanting to buy their wines with Burgundy so popular. If a domaine prices its wines too cheaply it will see those wines being sold on at a profit on the secondary market. I know what I would do if I were a vigneron - wouldn't you ?
I don't like the high prices either but they are a fact of current life - tough. I've been buying burgundies since the mid 90's but I can't afford many now that I used to buy and its getting worse. But I know why that is, understand it, and have to live with it, and its is absolutely not down to the vignerons telling people like you lies - as if. Where I once bought Grand Crus, now I can only buy premiers or village, and likewise Bourgognes. And I also am exploring so called 'lesser' villages and terroirs for interesting wines of more value. Bill is very good, the best ?, at helping us here which is why I guess people like us value his work and his site.
Ultimately, if you don't like the prices then don't pay them ? Look elsewhere for alternative wines ? If possible look for older vintages of Burgundy and buy those.
But please don't say you do not believe the vignerons i.e accuse them of telling lies. You are I'm afraid, for me, totally out of order there. Sorry.
njbruce
Member
I agree with everything Goughie says, esp. that the vignerons "are entitled to charge what the world will pay for their wines, and then there's a bigger world now wanting to buy their wines with Burgundy so popular. If a domaine prices its wines too cheaply it will see those wines being sold on at a profit on the secondary market."
De Vogue have reportedly held back 50% of the 2012 Musigny - others who have no need of the cash flow (all the top-rated producers) are likely to watch that policy closely; why allow the grey market brokers to make the lion's share of the profit on their product?
But there is a further complication for the consumer; allocations to older-established merchants - esp. in the UK - are coming under pressure from the worldwide demand for Burgundy. My own allocations dropped over 70% in 2012 for certain big names; when I asked why, I was told this was in proportion to the cut in the merchant's allocation. I trust my merchants and accept what they have told me. Simple scenario: established markets have been explored and demand catered to; new markets remain an attractive prospect, and merchants from places like Hong Kong and China are being very aggressive in inducing Burgundy producers to develop their name in those markets. But this explosion of interest in Burgundy is unfortunately coinciding with a series of vintages of greatly reduced production.
So are some burgundy producers diverting some of their previously-committed wine towards new markets, cutting allocations to some of their long-term agents/merchants out of proportion to their cuts in production?
Hi Banane,
Many vignerons did indeed lose 50% (versus a 'normal' yield) in the Côte de Nuits in 12, though 13 was a bit better for them. The average loss was more like 20-30%, but we try to avoid the 'average' don't we ;-)
You can take a look at the official yields here: http://www.burgundy-report.com/discover-burgundy/10-harvest-volumes-by-appellation/
Because there's only enough room for what you see on that page, you might also be interested in the Côte de Nuits (village + 1er) Rouge figures, and grand cru figures for 2008 and 2009. Remember that 09 was the last vintage with what was considered a 'normal' yield.
Hectolitres Produced:
2008 - 62,634 (village + 1er) - 11,529 (grand cru)
2009 - 72,118 - 13,509
2010 - 54,126 - 10,706
2011 - 60,374 - 12,151
2012 - 51,005 - 8,238
banane
Member
Dear all,
thanks for the detailed comments. I agree with many of the arguemnts too. The only problem I have is, that a few vigerons, not the most, can not(or like to)explain, why they lost 50%. Because of this, I have not a good feeling. Thanks to Bill for the offical yields.
I will discuss this with other vigerons in burgundy, when I visit them.
Hi Banane
The main reason for low yields on the cote de nuits was not rot or anything like that, it was actually how small the grapes were - millerandes so same number of bunches as usual, but half to 70% of usual weight per bunch...
njbruce
Member
Hi Bill,
Just wondering what you make of Matthew Jukes' low opinion of the 2012 vintage -
http://www.matthewjukes.com/2014/01/burgundy-2012-en-primeur-thoughts-scores-and-qps/
He is popular with the many who are irked at the high prices being asked for the 2012s, when (he argues) they are not anything special.
Nigel
Hi Nigel
Only met him once and he was pretty quiet, tasting away.
I can only assume he's based his opinion on iffy en-primeur samples and/or doesn't like tannin in baby-pinot. Has he spent much time in the côtes? If so, he's plouging the opposite furrow to the vast majority of producers' opinions. Of-course they are selling, but, hey...
They are under no illusions about the absolute quality, or lack of, in this vintage. 2012 is a simple, straightforward, relatively-early-drinking year for both red and white wines.
To that, I can only say, <strike-through>complete bullshit</strike-through> I disagree...
Cheers
Sounds like I'm somewhere in between Bill and Mr. Jukes -- and I tasted from cask at the estates. Some amazing wines -- some of the best, in more than a few instances, that I've tasted from cask of that particular wine from that particular producer in 25+ years of doing this. But also some relative disappointments and plenty of wines that were wait-and-see (even in November 2013, not all wines had finished malos). But style, to my experience and also repeated by several of the producers, that we really haven't seen, at least in modern times.
Antoine
Member
I just read M Jukes previous vintages assessment (click on "features" up the page) as well and, of course, he mentions producers who did perform in his opinion. His assesments of 2010 and 2011 look competent and his preferred producers in 2010, 2011 and 2012 seem good as well. I also note that some friends told me that 2012 tasted better in November in Burgundy than in London (in London, a lot of wines were an enigma to me so would agree with Claude on this, but I am an amateur).
So, different samples, different assessments and I see no problem with Bill loving it and Matthew not so much. I also note that, in London, there were far less samples in 2012 than in previous years (no Grivot tasted for instance).
I'll finally add that opinions change with time on different vintages: 2008 went from acidic and lean to better than 2009 to after all not so good and maybe very good indeed, 2009 went from vintage of the century to overblown fruit bombs overipe... to splendid wines that will easily live for 50 years without closing while 2010 was labelled vintage of the century with all to maybe a bit foursquare to better than 2005 but not so sure after all with 2011 being somewhere between green and early drinking pure splendid sexy.
So, the jury is still out for 2012 ...where, as usual, it will be producer, producer...
I just bought all vintages trying to stick (where affordable and available) to usual suspects.
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