My experience with the reds of 2004 is that its special flavor (which was not present in all the wines) has faded with time - so I wonder if you would really be unhappy having those 8 year old bottles still available. I always have prefered 2004 over 2003, at least in most cases...
A few days in Burgundy; the 2011s
(41 posts) (11 voices)
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rmgrenley
MemberWell, reading many of the tasting notes on the 2004's over the past year or so, it seems like they are at best a mixed bag if you don't like the "Greenie Meenies" and maybe worse than that, though I have heard that some are more sensitive to pyrazines than others. But given the good vintages that I do have sleeping in my cellars, and the vintages like 2005, 2008, 2009, and 2010 that have followed it, AND given that Burgundy is expensive in every vintage (just more expensive in some than others), I am glad to have skipped 2004 (and 2003 for that matter). I just wonder whether a vintage like 2011, which is getting positive reviews, IF it turned out to have a problem similar to 2004 which may or may not be detectable in the wines early on...how do we avoid some costly mistakes?
Posted 5 years ago # -
Hi Robert,
This is exactly why I cancelled my last subscription in about 2008 - people like Burghound, Steven Tanzer, Sarah Marsh and latterly John Gilman each have their plus and minus's - but none have resonated with me over 2004 - admittedly nice wines for a very short window of time. There were so many rare 04s I'd bought that I eventually ended up shipping off to auction.The basic 'best position' is to have the opportunity to taste widely, but this is a rare luxury, I know. I would say you just have to read widely. The advice here (for instance) is simply to avoid 2011 en-primeur and wait until the wines are landed in your market (so at least 6 months after bottling) and make your merchant do some work for their cash by organising tastings - it shouldn't just be easy money for them. This advice you can weigh versus those of the professional critics...
Posted 5 years ago # -
rmgrenley
MemberThank you for your response, Bill, your advice makes much sense. After many years of buying based on a consensus of wine reviews (since waiting until you can taste them yourself usually means missing many of your favorite producers or having them become cost prohibitive...ok, even more cost prohibitive), I have become increasingly dissatisfied with wine critics NEVER reassessing wines or vintages. If it wasn't for wine forums such as this one and Wine Berserkers, we would never hear about wines or whole vintages that are showing themselves to be problematic. A snapshot at birth is just not all that reliable, and I am getting tired of that being the sole focus of so many of the wine writers. Maybe some of this is a function of my age (58), where i am in my wine buying career, and how much Burgundy i already have in my cellar, but i am as or more interested in backfilling as feverishly chasing pre-releases and therefore the reviewers are mo longer very relevant. Where are the discussions about what has happened to the 2004's? Here on the wine boards; as ar as i can tell the critics have been silent. Most of my friends have already discontinued most or in some cases all of their subscriptions.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Just checked - the only 2004 still present here are the Corton Grand Cru's of Chandon de Briailles and some Grand Cru's of Jean Marc Millot and I'm looking forward to taste them in the future.
Our most recent annual Bourgogne Grand Cru tasting with a group of friends (28 May 2012) showed that the 04's Charmes Chambertin of Pierre Amiot & Fils and Corton Clos du Roi of Dubreuil - Fontaine were very good (with lots of youthful fruit) however still too young. For the record: the best wines then were Echezeaux and Clos de Vougeot, both 1998 of J.M Millot and the Clos Saint Denis 1999 of Michel Magnien which finally has lost most of the new wood used (because of contamination of the barrels of both the entire 1997 and 1998 vintage, after impregnating his cellar...).
And I remember a blind tasted NSG 1er Cru Les St Georges 2004 at Thibault Liger - Belair in June 2011, my favorite wine of this domaine (Richebourg not taken into account) which was really very, very good. I reconized the vineyard, my wife 'guessed' the vintage and Thibault mentioned that this wine finally lost its 'greenish' smell. We loved it.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Lliwiau Llachar
MemberClaes: Apologies for the 'leaking tap drip drip' nature of these notes. I was in Cardiff at the weekend for the Wales vs All Blacks game hence the radio silence. I'll start with notes from the Arlaud visit.
Bill: Looking forward to seeing your report on 'bugged wines', as I'm sure many of the people on this forum. Will you also do a similar report on the Syndicat de Gevrey 2011 tasting as I found this report very useful last year?
In addition do you think that your advice on avoiding buying En Primeur 2011 6 months after bottling is realistic? I would say that this approach is possible for Generic and Village cuvees, but I would think unlikely for some 1er and Grand Crus from the top producer tiers as the wines quickly sell out if you don't buy them at this stage.
With a few exceptions the majority of critics views I would'nt trust anyway; sometimes when I read reviews I often wonder whether we were both at the same tasting! I've always believed that your own palate is the best critic as it will be you drinking the wines in the long run.
ARLAUD(MOREY ST DENIS)(HOSTED BY CYPRIEN ARLAUD)
Bourgogne Rouge 2011
Rich colour. Slight reduction. Attractive fruit flavours of damson and plum; good weight and vivacity. 16Chambolle Musigny 2011
Rhubarb and Red Cherry fruit nose. Very juicy fruit flavours with good weight and texture. Savoury finish, with piercing minerality. 17Morey St Denis 2011
Slight damp, woody nose masking red fruits. Crunchy red fruits of raspberry and strawberry which have great ripeness; lots of purity. 16.5Gevrey Chambertin 2011
Strawberry fruits with some aniseed. Crunchy fruits with have good weight; fresh and expressive. 16.5Morey St Denis 1er cru Millandes 2011
Gamey, earthy notes. Lots of juice; good extraction. Very fine finish indeed; well balanced. Big step up in fruit weight and complexity from the village wines. 17.5Morey St Denis 1er cru Les Blanchards 2011
Much more in the way of floral top notes when compared with the Millandes. Silky, smooth rounded tannins. Lots of freshness; classic strawberries and cream flavours. 17.5Chambolle Musigny 1er cru Les Sentiers 2011
Fruity nose dominated by damson and black cherry. Fruits are quite chewy on the palate; pretty firm structure here. 17Morey St Denis 1er cru Aux Cheseaux 2011
Lots of depth with the colour here; deep purple. Interesting nose with leafy notes, herbs, blueberry and blackcurrant fruits. Lots of ripeness but not overextracted. 17.5Morey St Denis 1er cru Les Ruchots 2011
Fairly closed but some aromas of mint leaf and herbs. Lots of richness on the mid palate with fruits of blueberry, damson and black cherry and chewy tannins. 17Gevrey Chambertin 1er cru Combottes 2011
Busy nose with gamey, earthy, mushroom and red fruit aromas. Found the wine quite minerally and lacking a bit fat for my taste on the mid palate; the Dujac Combottes was more open and richer in fruit. Fine grained tannins; savoury finish. 17.5Clos de la Roche Grand Cru 2011
Quality ramps up with this wine. Lots of florals, cured meat, black fruits and spices. Lots of fruit power but with lots of elegance; very fine tannin structure. 19Charmes Chambertin Grand Cru 2011
A bit of a come down after the Clos de la Roche. Sweet, red fruits and lots of perfume. Nice intensity on the palate. Solid and well crafted if a little dull. 17Clos St Denis Grand Cru 2011
Fruit compote nose; a little spice (cinnamon,clove). Soft and supple fruit flavours; mix of red and black fruit. Soft, silky tannins; beautiful savoury finish. 18.5Bonnes Mares Grand Cru 2011
Very little being given up on the nose here. Creamy attack; strawberries, raspberries and cherry fruits. A little restrained; attractive minerality with long length. 18Posted 5 years ago # -
Lliwiau Llachar
MemberTOLLOT BEAUT (CHOREY LES BEAUNE)(HOSTED BY NATHALIE TOLLOT)
This was a very enjoyable tasting with Nathalie at the end of a long day, as she was a very funny and generous host. I was most impressed with the lift taking you down to the cellars (very flash)!
Bourgogne Rouge 2011
Fresh and clean; lots of ripe berry fruits with an attractive texture. The fruit that goes into this is mostly declassified Chorey les Beaune. 16.5Chorey les Beaune 2011
Two different barrels here which will then get blended together at some stage.
Barrel 1: Slighty reduced. Rich colour. Fairly tight and austere. 16
Barrel 2: Stinky Pommard type nose. Bags of fruit; good freshness and weight. 17Chorey les Beaune 'Chapitre' 2011
Fruity nose; cherry and redcurrants prominent and lots of lifted perfume. 17Savigny les Beaune 1er cru Lavieres 2011
A little smoky, herbaceous, spicy with red fruits beneath. Really delicious this; lots of concentration with fine silky tannins. 17.5Savigny les Beaune 1er cru Champ Cheverny 2011
Sweet red fruits. Slightly firmer and tighter in structure. 17Beaune 1er cru Clos de Roi 2011
1ha owned site in one plot which was planted in 1982. It is a gravelly site which lacks acidity. Bright red fruit nose of cherry and plum which is a little closed up. Soft and supple fruit flavours which are nice and rounded. Good weight and texture. Very attractive. 17Beaune 1er cru Greves 2011
Half a hectare site in two parcels which were planted in the 1960s. Big rocks with quite a fine soil. Big step up from the Clos de Roi. Intense berry nose with lots of spice and aniseed. Full on structure on the mid palate with lots of fruit. You get a sneaky peak of this when you taste before the wine shuts down. Excellent. 18Aloxe Corton 2011
2ha site in 4 parcels. Gamey, slightly stinky nose with some florals. Very tight and chewy and pretty unforgiving at thus stage. Lacking fruit I feel. 15.5Aloxe Corton 1er cru Vercots 2011
Rustic and chewy. Red fruits present but the structure is rather overwhelming at this stage. 16Aloxe Corton 1er cru Les Fournieres 2011
Elegant nose of wild roses, cured meats and sweet red fruits. Very tight structure but with fine ripe tannins. Lots of fruit richness here which will take a while to come through; Nathalie reckoned at least 7 years. Good. 17.5Corton Rouge Grand Cru 2011
Half of the parcel replanted 20 years ago with the remaining parcel replanted only 5 years ago. Stewed red fruits, very elegant floral nose. Juicy red fruits; very pretty. 17Corton Bressandes Grand Cru 2011
Sweet red fruits(cherry, rapsberry); very expressive. Palate shuts down pretty quickly but lots of ripe fruit and tannins present. Super stuff. 18Nathalie then very kindly opened bottles of the 1993 vintage of the two Aloxe Corton premier crus to give us some idea as to how they develop. They performed much better than I was expecting.
Aloxe Corton 1er cru Vercots 1993
Cheesy, sweaty with mushroom before the red fruits come through. Impressive concentration, great acidity with lots of bite on the finish. 17.5Aloxe Corton 1er cru Les Fournieres 1993
Amazing florals before heading into gamey, mushroom and cured meat notes. Lots of tannins and red fruits of cherry and strawberry. Minerally finish and great texture. Lots of life ahead for this wine; length lingers on and on. 19Posted 5 years ago # -
Lliwiau Llachar said:
Bill: Looking forward to seeing your report on 'bugged wines', as I'm sure many of the people on this forum. Will you also do a similar report on the Syndicat de Gevrey 2011 tasting as I found this report very useful last year?In addition do you think that your advice on avoiding buying En Primeur 2011 6 months after bottling is realistic? I would say that this approach is possible for Generic and Village cuvees, but I would think unlikely for some 1er and Grand Crus from the top producer tiers as the wines quickly sell out if you don't buy them at this stage.
I've always believed that your own palate is the best critic as it will be you drinking the wines in the long run.
Hi Mark - I will indeed, but I'm concentrating on getting the Nuits issue (I can't really keep saying summer can I? ;-)) out this week.
You'll get the Gevrey notes in the Autumn issue, which will be before the end of the year, and will have seven new domaines profiled - all of whom I'll be visiting Thursday/Friday this week...
I understand what you say about missing out on wines EP - but (speaking purely for my own cellar) I don't want to risk buying wines that make me unhappy, that I will later have to try to re-sell - à la 2004 - but I can't make other people's minds up for them. The big shit, of-course, is if you get locked out of wines 'you didn't buy last year, so...' and that is quite realistic. In such a situation, if I wasn't largely stepping aside (on new vintages for my cellar) since 2010, then I think I'd take the risk if I was after blue-chips from Rousseau, Roumier, Mugnier, Fourrier, Liger-Belair etcetera, because I'd be pretty sure those wines wouldn't actually lose money, but the cash tied up in them could have been spent of something interesting and older...
Your last comment brings an interesting point (I won't name either the merchant or the domaine to leave a semblence of doing the right thing...) but in discussion with a reputed merchant who has to allocate a certain famous domaine and has a special tasting to show them each year (I said no clues right(!) - okay, I didn't mention the country!) I was surprised to be told that the throng of assembled journalists/critics never buy the wines, I was the only one...!!! (I assume burghound has a decent allocation though ;-))
Cheers
Posted 5 years ago # -
Claes
MemberLliwiau Llachar said:
Claes: Apologies for the 'leaking tap drip drip' nature of these notes. I was in Cardiff at the weekend for the Wales vs All Blacks game hence the radio silence. I'll start with notes from the Arlaud visit.Oh, don't be silly, we can wait. I'm just glad to be able to read reports like these without the need to pay a subscription to somebody. Thanks! I hope the few CSD 2010's I bought will be as good as the 2011 CSD sound to be.
Edit: apparently I'm not capable to make posts in a forum without screwing it up. It seems like they disappears when I quote somebody. Is there a FAQ for idiots like myself?
Posted 5 years ago # -
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