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Reds from Beaune

(24 posts) (14 voices)

Started 1 year ago by Joachim
Latest reply from bill nanson

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Joachim
Member

I’m developing a new interest for red wines from Beaune. I always had reservations, since the premier Crus are kind of confusing, as there are so many and still there seems to be no real hierarchy - maybe apart from L’Enfant Jesus by Bouchard,but this is overrated and overpriced, at least in my opinion. Moreover, Beaune seems to be dominated by negociant wines, and I have reservations towards them, too.

But regarding the price development in the last years, I have to look for alternatives to Gevrey, Chambolle and Vosne. Just by chance, I drank three Beaune wines in the last weeks – all marvellous. First was a 98 Cent Vignes – unfortunately I can’t recall the producer, since it was at a friends place. Even if it had some aging notes, the wine was very good. Then I had 2005 Marconnets and Clos de Mouche 2005 from Bouchard, a contradiction to all my reservations. Especially the Marconnets had a Chambolle-like elegance, since the Clos de Mouche had more power, but was a very structured wine, too. Everything you need from a Burgundy, for less then 30,- Euro.

I feel confirmed by Bill who writes in his book, that in terms of price and quality the premier Cru reds of Beaune are the greatest bargains in Burgundy today. He also states, that Beaune reds can live to very ripe old ages. I’m not so sure about that, since I never drank a real good Beaune older then 15 years. Also, my merchant says that they are reaching the climax around this time.

So, any expericences or advices to share here? What are recommendable producers? Even with my reservations towards negociant wines I’d recommend Bouchard today. Which are the best Terroirs? Any more comments about this subject?

Posted 1 year ago #
jacob
Member

Oh, there are so many good (small) producers of Beaune 1e Cru's as shows http://burgoblog.blogspot.com/search/label/Beaune for example. My favorite is: Cent Vignes (or Toussaint, just a little lighter) of Domaine Lucien Jacob which still are very nice form the 70's and 80's. But also Clos de Mouches - in red of Jean Garaudet (retired now) and in white of Billard Gonnet or the Beaunes of Domaine Mussy, Dubreuil-Fontaine, Epénots of Francois Charles etc. are good and none expensive examples.

Posted 1 year ago #
emile
Member

The Domaine wines from Louis Jadot in Beaune represent good value and will age well up to 20 years. Clos des Couchereaux, Les Avaux, Theurons, and Bressandes are favorites and all (will) cost under $50 USD retail when 2010 is released. There is also Boucherottes at same price. The Clos des Urseles, the clos and monopole within Les Vignes Franches, is the only Domaine holding from Beaune for Jadot, which will cost over $50 and more like $70.

The Domaine Gagey bottlings farmed, vinified, and raised by Domaine Louis Jadot, i.e. Les Chouacheux, Les Cent Vignes, and Les Pertuisots, are priced exactly the same as the Domaine Jadot bottlings, i.e. under $50.

There was also a 150th anniversary cuvee made from 2009 vintage, which I suspect is an assemblage of barrels from holdings listed above, which was priced similarly.

I also enjoy the wines of Domaine Albert Morot, which have been covered by Bill previously.

Posted 1 year ago #
Lliwiau Llachar
Member

Joachim

Some interesting points that you raise.

My view is that Beaune has a bit of an image problem; its just not sexy enough and is way off my radar when it comes to buying things Burgundy. I also have had to look at alternatives to Gevrey and Vosne but I have moved towards Marsannay and Fixin rather than Beaune.

I think that I share some of your reservations about Beaune. There are way too many premier cru's and it is dominated by the negociants. I know that many of the negociants make good wines but if I'm faced with similar wines from a negociant and a grower then I would always opt for the grower wine because I believe that it will be much more interesting and representative of that appellation, however misplaced that view might be.

Many years ago I worked for the Northern Irish agent for Louis Jadot. At the front of our office building we had a glass display case which had a selection of bottles of the wineries that we represented. The wines were under bright lights, standing upright and were at the mercy of the weather elements. I think that it was sometime in 2003 that I suggested to the wine buyer that we should change the bottles in the case as the many of the labels and producers had changed. One of the bottles was a Beaune 1er Cru Theurons 1989 from Louis Jadot which we opened one afternoon. It was an amazing bottle; beautiful concentration of fruit and with layers of complexity and one of the best bottles of Burgundy that I have ever tasted. Even got to take most of the bottle home that night which was a result! I was just so impressed that it had lasted so well.

I think that Louis Jadot is one of the best sources of Beaune 1er Cru's from a negcoiant although I would stick to the wines that are domaine bottled from them. Another wine that I would recommend and which I have had out in restaurants many times is the Beaune 1er Cru Greves from Tollot Beaut. The best of the terroirs that I have come across are probably Greves, Theurons and Bressandes as these have good richness of fruit but also with good tannin structure.

Probably an appellation that I should look into more though.

Mark

Posted 1 year ago #
Claes
Member

I have nowhere near the experience that other posters have on this site, but I do know that I got immense pleasure out of a bottle of Grèves from Lafarge.

Posted 1 year ago #
Goughie13
Member

Very little experience at all of Beaune's for me - something I too should get around to improving. Recall drinking some Morot's but a long time ago. Of late the one that has 'grabbed' me, and believe Bill likes it a good deal, is Dubreuil-Fontaine's 2008 Beaune 1er cru Montrevenot - excellent value from the domaine as well.

Of all the D-F terroirs we worked in during the 2009 vendange, besides the idyllic Sous Fretille and Clos Berthet, the one that really was fantastic in terms of views, ambience, peace, quiet, solitude etc, was Montrevenots. Quite high, memory is a bit dodgy but think it looks down on Pommard and way out east across the plain. Early, on a beautiful sunny morning, it was absolute bliss - and the grapes were pretty good as well. Must get back up there next time I'm on the Cote - if I can find the way !

Posted 1 year ago #
bill nanson
admin

Spoilt for choice - the more I think about it, the longer the list I could come up with!

Grèves is probably the top terroir, favourites include: Baby Jesus BP&F, Bellene, Lafarge, des Croix, JC Boisset and a host of others.
Négoce brand/monopoles outside Grèves such as Clos des Ursules, Les Fèves, Clos des Mouches are invariably excellent.
Vignes Franches also has great wines but few exponents...

Then without going through the owners of Teurons, Bressandes etc., (like here: http://www.burgundy-report.com/summer-2010/beaune-village-profile/) there are occasional wines that will stop you in your tracks - such as 08 Montrevenots from Dubreuil-Fontaine...

It's just such a shame that we lost the greatest of all Beaune focused domaines - Château de Chorey...

Posted 1 year ago #
jacob
Member

What do you mean by Château de Chorey is lost? A memory comes to mind, Beaune les Teurons of grand cru quality...
I have visited Michel Martin (Chorey) and there also a classic Les Teurons is produced!

Last weekend we tasted a Beaune Bressandes 2002 of Albert Morot - top quality however the wine was not fully developed yet - but we've more :-) and of different vineyards.
Note: "wild strawberries, forest and a litte oak in the nose, nice red fruit on the palate with still plenty of acidity and a little bitterness in the aftertaste".

Posted 1 year ago #
Gilberto
Member

Bill, the link does not work, there is a bracket too many at the end of it.
Very interesting read, by the way...

Posted 1 year ago #
Chris Piper
Member

Try the two Premier Crus from Domaine Michel Martin, based in Chorey-les-Beaune. Fabulous 2009 Clos du Roi and les Teurons....

Posted 1 year ago #
Joachim
Member

Wow, thanks for the great response, seems I really missed something so far. I will try to purchase some of the recommended wines and will come back to you. Anyway, it seems not that easy to find them in Germany, of course apart from Negociants like Drouhin and Bouchard. But maybe my next visit in Burgundy will be more concentrated on the Domaines in Beaune, instead of the usual Cote de Nuit trip.

Posted 1 year ago #
burgundyfan
Member

I'm always go in octobre to A. Morot.
I like his Teurons and the Marconnets and buy it than as primeur.
Geoffroy Choppin de Janvry is a really nice guy and it's always a great pleasure to have a degustation there.

Posted 1 year ago #
Michael Warner
Member

Francois Gay in Chorey also makes a lovely Beaune Theurons and a Beaune Perrières.

Posted 1 year ago #
jacob
Member

One of my nicest experiences with Beaune 1e Cru was my first visit at Domaine Dublère. Blair Pethel started the tasting (3 reds - 3 whites) with his Les Blanches Fleurs 2007 and only smelling the wine give us a big smile and tears in our eyes. The nose was so elegant, fine, delicate and defined - I've never had such an experience before in 25 years.

Found Bill's note... :-)
2007 Domaine Dublère, Beaune 1er Les Blanche Fleurs
The vines are sited right next-door to Beaune 1er Clos du Roi. Medium, medium-pale colour. The nose has a wonderful array of precise pinot berry/cherry fruits – just lovely. Again, beautiful fruit on the tongue and an extra dimension of creamy fruit in the mid-palate – very persistent. For the moment there remains a hint of oak flavour – frankly gorgeous – buy, buy, buy…

Posted 1 year ago #
Joachim
Member

Wow, tahnks for the great response, guys! Seems there is a lot to taste and explore. I will try to purchase some of the recommandations and will come back to you. Might be difficult with some producers to get them in Germany, but maybe my next visit in Burgundy is more concentrated to Beaune instead of the ususal Cote de Nuit tour.

Posted 1 year ago #
Job van der Geest
Member

Hello everyone,

Joachim, interesting you start your post with mentioning a 98 Cent Vigne.
A year and a half ago I bought a Cent vigne 98 form Dufouleur (a negoce bottling)for only €13. It proved to be an excellent buy: rich, dark and slightly rustic, with loads of sous bois and smooth tannins.
I rushed back to buy the remaining six bottles. Thursday I drank the last one. Each bottle showed the same preformance. A little old fashioned style (probalbly some chaptelisation), certainly not the best cru, but still everything I look for in aged Burgundy.

The week before I openend a Jadot Boucherottes 99. This was a more polished wine, with smooth fruit and good balance. Also very much worth the €27 it cost me.

But I do agry that Beuane just seems to miss that something extra that makes me look out for more.Probbalbly because in our terroir-focused age the 1e crus in theory seem just to much alike. This is the place where the producer (i.e. mostly one of the big negoces) is more important than the cru, or at least is seems to be. To me the famed Baby Jesus or Clos des Mouches are more brand names than specific crus.

None the less, if the price is right (and these days there is a good chance) it can offer something very enjoyable and even exciting.

Posted 1 year ago #
emile
Member

I am interested in the perception from Trade and Consumers regarding use of the term "negociant". Louis Jadot is commonly referred to as a "negociant". Yet, in regards to the Beaune AOC, i.e. see vineyards listed previously, Louis Jadot is actually a significant grower. (In fact, doesn't Jadot own the most 1er Cru and Grand Cru hectares in Burgundy?) Does this distinction matter to the Consumer, or does the Consumer dismiss Domaine proruction due to the negociant endeavors

Domaine Faiveley is another example. 80% of the wine produced by Faiveley is Domaine wine. Yet, Faiveley is commonly referred to as a "negociant" when only 20% of the bottles produced are made from grapes other than their own. \

I understand that ultimately quality/style should be the deciding factor. However, it seems Producers are often categorized inaccurately, if not unfairly.

Posted 1 year ago #
bill nanson
admin

Job van der Geest said:
To me the famed Baby Jesus or Clos des Mouches are more brand names than specific crus.

Hi Job.
Personally I have another opinion - at least for the 'flagship' wines that you name - and I would also add Jadot's Clos des Ursules and Chanson's Clos des Feves - all of these come from specific pieces of land, no different to any other named premier crus. You could of-course make a case for Drouhin's Clos des Mouches because they have such a large holding, though on the other hand they also have enough that they can de-select some tanks. Anyway, I think these account for some of the best quality wines of Beaune, and are real premier crus.

For me brands would certainly be wines like Bouchard's Clos du Château which blends something like 17 different 1er crus...

Best!

Posted 1 year ago #
Joachim
Member

Emile, I think you make an important point here about the negociant bussiness. As I said, it was simply a prejudice when I had reservations towards negociant wines. I have to admit that some are very good, and that my reservations are based on clichees.

Just look at Bordeaux: Most of the Grand Crus are made by big companies, by a professional cellar team, and not by family Domaines. Still, these are great wines. And, as I wrote, I had some great wines from Bouchard recently.

I think most wine lovers (including me) have a lot of expectations and sometimes clichees in mind, since this is such an emotional matter for us. But the reality is more diversed and complex (as so often) I recommend a great book which I'm reading right now: "Bordeaux-Burgundy, a vintage rivalry" by Jean-Robert Pitte (Actually, its a recommandation by Bill) Pitte is the President of the Sorbonne University, and he shows in a very precise and enlightening way that a wine style, the idea of terroir aso. is more or less the result of a sociocultural process (including the named clichees and expectations) and not something natural given.

Posted 1 year ago #
emile
Member

Joachim,
Thanks for your comments.

The question I raised really has nothing to do with Negociant wines, or how good some Negocaint wines may be. It has to do with Growers who own their own vines vines and make their own wine who also happen to produce Negociant wine. The Negociant stigma seemingly supercedes the Grower aspect.

Going back to Jadot and specifically to Beaune, Jadot is a significant Grower. They are making very little, if any, Negociant wine in Beaune commune. Yet, this fact is seemingly underminded by the sea of Macon Village and Pouilly Fuisse Jadot produces.

I do not work with Jadot wines now and have no affiliation with Jadot. But I do enjoy drinking Jadot Domaine wines(note that the style of Jadot may not be my favorite, but I still recognize integrity), especially the Clos St. Jacques, which often represent good value in a sea of overpriced Burgundy.

Posted 1 year ago #
rgranger
Member

There are actually quite a lot of great producers from Beaune and though there are something shows and problems in some examples. That will surely suit you just right.

I have not encountered any problems coming from their end so there should be nothing that would hinder the thing altogether.

Some bottlers are actually established already so you should have no particular details to look out for.

Posted 1 year ago #
Michael Warner
Member

Wow - someone seems to have created a management speak robot ! It can chime in to any conversation and confuse people, leaving them to wonder whether it actually said anything.

Posted 1 year ago #
stdel
Member

Has anyone tried the wines from Pierre Labet? He is the owner of Ch.de la Tour in Vougeot,if i'm not mistaken, but his domain makes wines from Beaune. The 1er cru Coucherias 2006 and the Clos du Dessus des Marconnets 2008 (red) were very good. Especially the 2006 1er cru was a real delight, showing a little bit more oak but a great wine overall.

Posted 1 year ago #
bill nanson
admin

Michael Warner said:
Wow - someone seems to have created a management speak robot ! It can chime in to any conversation and confuse people, leaving them to wonder whether it actually said anything.

Hmm - yes. I'm watching Michael!

I agree stdel:
Try here:
http://www.burgundy-report.com/summer-2010/profile-domaine-pierre-labet-vougeot/

Posted 1 year ago #

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