A favorite special wine of mine has been de Vogue's Chambolle-Musigny 1er cru: a declassified Musigny. Are there other producers who 'declassify' GC down to 1er? Are there further fixed declassifications from 1er to villages?
"Declassified" Grand Crus?
(38 posts) (20 voices)
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bmcq,
How do you feel Vogues Chambolle 1er compares to the Musigny?
Cheers,
WillPosted 3 years ago # -
Dr Georges Mugeret young vines Ruchottes springs to mind first. Villages in 2002-2005. I can't remember whether it was 06 or 07 (easy to check on winesearcher) when it was updated to a 1er... 02 and 05 were super, 03 and 04 were not, Not tasted the more recent ones...
Posted 3 years ago # -
@Rick
DRC from time-to-time make a Vosne-Romanée 1er Cru (Cuvée Duvault-Blochet). Which sometimes is young vine fruit, sometimes is a second pass through the vines, and sometimes contains grapes from Romanée-Conti, but it seems to be different every time...Posted 3 years ago # -
Peter Chiu
Member***Are there further fixed declassifications from 1er to villages? ***
bmcq : I could not think of any at this moment.
That being said...due to the text in the AOC laws governing the village Cambolle-Musigny, Vogue declassified the white juice from Musigny-Blanc all the way to a Regional level white wine.
****Vogue's Chambolle-Musigny 1er cru: a declassified Musigny ***
Posted 3 years ago # -
Howard Cooper
Member -
Sergey
MemberDomaine Leroy from 2004 vintage did this with all wines (declassified them to village level). Bourgogne Blanc from Domaine Comte de Vogue is in fact Musigny Blanc Grand Cru. The thing is that the prices for those wines are like for Grand Crus:) I guess that Dugat-Py declassified some of their wines.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Peter Chiu
Member****Domaine Leroy from 2004 vintage did this with all wines (declassified them to village level). Bourgogne Blanc from Domaine Comte de Vogue is in fact Musigny Blanc Grand Cru. The thing is that the prices for those wines are like for Grand Crus:) I guess that Dugat-Py declassified some of their wines. ****
Sergey.....I agree with you that Vogue`s declassied Bourgogne Blanc ( from Musigny Blanc a G-cru )is quite pricey.
We know it is a fact that Vogue labelled their declassified red juice from Musigny as Chabolle-Musigny 1er cru.
But does anyone know why Vogue is not allowed to label their declassified white juice from Musigny ( G-cru in its own right ) ... as Chambolle-Musigny 1er cru or just simply Chambolle-Msuginy ( village ) ?
Please note the abvoe question is a test of your knowledge of Burgundy....
I am waiting for any answer !!
Posted 3 years ago # -
Peter,
CMusigny Controlle only allows for red wines regulations.... NOT white so only red wine is covered under the CMusigny laws that would allow it to be labeled as a GC, 1er cru or village. Those CM people just don't like whites...why is that???? Reverse apartheid? I'm protesting! oui??
Posted 3 years ago # -
Peter Chiu
MemberJPwest.....100 % right.
According to AOC text covering Musigny ...the grape types are red and white; whereas the AOC text covering Chambolle-Musigny list only one grape : red.
****Those CM people just don't like whites...why is that???? Reverse apartheid? I'm protesting! oui?? ****
AOC was created in the 1930s when red could get a better price.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Peter Chiu
MemberJPwest....since you anwer the question so perfectly....here is another Burgundy question re declassifed juice.
Let say if I own parcels in Bonnes-Mares both situated on Chambolle and on Morey-St-Denis; and if I declassied the mixed juices from these parcels...how should I label them legally ?
Please note I have no answer ....
Posted 3 years ago # -
Phil Eaves
MemberPeter I assume you mean if they have been made as one wine, and not seperate from each commune, then they would only be allowed Bourgogne because you cannot mix villages at 1er or village classified level so no possibility to declassify into anything else.
But I believe the Morey side is owned by one Domaine (which escapes me for the moment) so no real issue plus I do not think any Domaine would get themselves into the situation you describe.
If anyone has any other thoughts I would also be interested to here them
cheers
Phil
Posted 3 years ago # -
Peter Chiu
MemberPhil.....thanks for your answer.
I do not rally know the answer myself; and I believe your answer is correct. I believe no Domaine would get themselves into the situation descibed in my quesion.
I believe Roumier own parcels on both sides.
Once again...would like to thank Bill for creating this Burgundy Forum as everyone one who posted here are so well informed and learned.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Phil-Peter: yes I think Phil is correct. One might think that the 2 Musignys could be combined and labeled Cote de Nuits but I believe that what Phil mentioned is correct. Leroy did this recently in 2004 (and other years) in which Lalou mixed a number of vineyards ...some 1er Cru from various villages and labeled the result Borgogne.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Phil Eaves
MemberMichael In theory yes he could do that but its the same arguement as those who label one wine as VV and another not to my mind they are telling the world this wine is not as good as that one and end up with unsold stock. Although if they marketed them in different parts of the world perhaps ??????
Posted 3 years ago # -
MarkR
MemberI seem to remember reading at some point that if a producer went over the permitted yields for a vineyard designation then the 'extra' was declassified into a lower one. I believe this happened in 99 as it was a large crop. Have i misunderstood or mis-remembered this?
Posted 3 years ago # -
MarkR said:
I seem to remember reading at some point that if a producer went over the permitted yields for a vineyard designation then the 'extra' was declassified into a lower one. I believe this happened in 99 as it was a large crop. Have i misunderstood or mis-remembered this?Officially that is not allowed - overcropped wine should go for distillation. In practice, we can conjecture.... ;-)
Today with the elasticity of the yield rules, for a decent producer it shouldn't happen...
Posted 3 years ago # -
Rick Dalia
MemberRegarding Michael's comment about bottling different parcels of Echezeaux:
Anne Gros bottles a couple of different Echezeaux with what I guess are different parcels and both are designated grand cru. Since I can't afford the pricetag, I haven't tried either, but any further insight into this one?
Posted 3 years ago # -
Emile,
Is it any good? How is the price pitched (i.e as a 1er cru or as a grand cru)?
Posted 1 year ago # -
emile
MemberI have only tasted 2007-2009. If you are not aware, Domaine Jacque Prieur wines are more modern, oppulent, and extracted in style. I thought the extract and oak overwhelmed the fruit in the 2007 vintage, but, then again, I tasted the wine very young, i.e. January 2012 was the last time I tasted the wine. The 2008 and 2009 are much more impressive and clearly express the intensity and complexity of Chambertin. 2008 and 2009 are very precise and balanced albeit it a more modern style. At $120-$150 retail in the USA it is not cheap, but clearly a less expensive means to experience Chambertin than buying virtually any Chambertin bottling. Most Chambertin in the USA are more than $120-$150 wholesale prior to retail mark-up. Prieur does not own any other vines in Gevrey, so it is without a dout 100% Chambertin de-classified.
Posted 1 year ago #
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