Mark, you really nailed it! These are probably some of the best wines you can buy in Germany. Dönhoff is supposed to be one of the best Winemakers in Germany, and Haag is my personal favourite. Yesterday we had the 2011 Riesling Kabinett Feinherb, which means a quality between sweet and dry. Its perfect for asian cuisine. If you ever have the chance you should try Haags Spätlese Brauneberger Juffer Sonnenuhr, one of the best wines regarding price/quality I ever had. (And now back to Pinot Noir ;-))

Joachim

Agree with you totally with your view on German Riesling; I just was mindful on not going off topic. Some of the 2011 Rieslings I tasted were excellent especially at Kabinett level. I ordered a case each of the following which were real 'standout' wines for me. Really well priced as well considering the high quality.

Donnhoff Oberhauser Leistenberg Riesling Kabinett
Donnhoff Brucke Riesling Spatlese
Fritz Haag Brauneberger Riesling Kabinett
Ziereisen Schulen Spatburgunder

Mark

Thanks for your comments! I appreciate your interest in german wine. But even if I drink some Spätburgunder from time to time, I'd say that the real thing is the german Riesling. I think there are several countries and regions that produce better red wine then Germany. But when it comes to Riesling, especially the sweet one from the Mosel Region or the dry from Rhein and Nahe, there is nothing better then that in the whole wide world. I really recommend that you try Dönhoff, Haag or Egon Müller some time, since this is a special taste which you find nowhere else.

Joachim / Gilberto: Thanks for the notes from your German/Swiss PN tasting; sounded like a very interesting evening.

Funny that you mentioned Ziereisen as I tried a few of their wines last week at a German 2011 vintage tasting in London. Ziereisen were the only producer present with any red wines so was quite interested to see how the wines fared.

The Schulen 2011 showed very nicely with lots of bright red fruits, good varietal character with low alcohol; 12%. Price was this wine 'stacked up' as well; very good value at £54/6. Really enjoyable.

In contrast the Jaspis 2011 which comes in at £144/6 has much more oak character, and as such was much more austere and structured. I just didn't feel that their was enought fruit character present to support such a wine for the long term.

Pity that there wasn't other producers present with Reds to try. Still German Pinots are probably wines that I will start to try now with more regularity, and hopefully I will encounter more at forthcoming German tastings that I am planning to attend.

Yes, Gilberto, we definetely have to open another Becker and some other PNs! And not just to find otu if it was too much or too less acidity ;-)

A postscriptum to our tasting: An english friend of mine made me aware of an international Pinot Noir Tating that was held in London last autumn. Members of the Jury where Tim Atkins, Jancis Robinson and some other MWs. Seems that the German Pinot Noirs showed very well there, and Ziereisen, which was the weakest wine of our tasting, was able to get 2 wines into the Top Ten (but with different cuvees, Jaspis and Schulen, not the Tschuppen - I have some of the remarkable 2005 vintage cellared), even if the first two places went to US PNs. The Burgundy Pinot Noirs (Hudelot-Noellat and Fourrier) where showing well, but where not in the Top Ten.

Still, it must be pointed out that the tasting was sponsored by the German Wine Institute, but since this was a blind tasting with a competent Jury, I think it has some meaning.

Here are two links where the results are documented:

http://www.timatkin.com/articles?250

http://schiller-wine.blogspot.de/2011/11/tim-atkin-pinot-noir-taste-off-of.html

Joachim: congratulations on the "sketchy" notes! To reach that level of detail I need quite a bit more time with the wine...
As we remarked immediately we agreed quite well on the relative ranking of the wines, although I did not even try a finer classification as you did.
We seem to disagree, however, on the acidity level for the Becker: you wrote "too much" and I "too little"! We'll need to open another one to find out...

As Gilberto said, we had a wonderful evening, and it was a great pleasure for me and my friends to host Gilberto and share some wines with him, especially since he brought such marvellous example of Suisse PN. Looking back, my only regret is that we didn’t get higher quality PNs from Germany, since Switzerland clearly won this contest, as I have to admit humbly with a shattered national pride ;-) Still, it was really interesting to see that price really matters, as proven in a blind tasting.

Since I was a bit carried away by the excitement and the good mood, and had to control the partridge in vermouthcream that was served to accompany the wines, my notes are as sketchy as Gilbertos. Still, here are my conclusions in brief form, including a rating.

1. Weingut Sprecher von Bernegg (Jan Luzi), von Pfaffen-Calander – This was maybe the most interesting wine for me, really exotic for a PN, but still somehow typical. Nevertheless, I was suspecting this could be the Brunello (at least a very elegant example), since it was so different. It had strong notes of green herbs in the nose and on the palate, thyme and rosemary, but very harmonic and well integrated. Medium body, very good balance, medium acidity, an elegant wine which reminded me of a gentle walk through a summer forest. (17,5/20)

2. Weingut Ziereisen Spätburgunder "Tschuppen" - The wine had an aggressive acidity, not well integrated, and too much wood. Light body which could not balance the acid. The nose was allright, but not exciting. This was my biggest disappointment. Especially since the 2005 “Tschuppen” was a marvellous wine on the level of a good Burgundy village. Maybe the 2005 was a one hit wonder, since the 2006 and 2009 were not nearly as good. I still have some of the top-cuvees of that vintage(Jaspis 2005) cellared, I’m looking forward to taste them to complete the picture. (15,5/20)

3. Domaine Dublere Beaune 1er Cru Les Blanches Fleurs - We really liked the wine – but none of us identified it as the Burgundy. Might be a result of the 2009 vintage, which I still regard as untypical and too broad. Stuill, it was a real pleasure to drink, a textbook Pinot, but nothing special and not more elegant then the Suisse PN or the Heger. (17/20)

4. Weingut Friedrich Becker Spätburgunder "B" - A disappointment as well. Especially since even the basic PN from Becker is supposed to be a wine of high quality. Here we had too much Tannins, too much acidity, a very alcoholic nose and an unbalanced qualiy. Still, the wine had some power, but that’s not what I'm looking for in PN (16,5)

5. Agostina Pieri, Brunello di Montalcino 2006 – A very good wine, but obviously the pirate.

6. Weingut Dr. Heger Ihringer Winklerberg Spätburgunder Großes Gewächs - Finally, Dr. Heger saved the German reputation with his Ihringer Winklerberg. My notes just say „great“ and I was suspecting that this could be the Brungundy. Power, Finesse, balance, cherry notes, even a hint of earth, this was really a pleasure. (18/20)

7. Gantenbein – It’s the old thing with Gantenbein. A real good wine, but no surprises and somehow to linear for my taste. Still, this is a serios, very well made wine, no doubt about it. (17,5/20)

8. Hallau Choelle, Markus Ruch - This was my favourite – or was it just my level of drunkenness, since it was the last wine? Of course no one of us was spitting (I just emptied the rest of the Ziereisen and the Becker in the sink) so at this point there was some euphoria in the air. But I retasted the wine the other day and was confirmed. A very concentrated PN with good body (probably a result of the old grapes), still very balanced and elegant, dark fruits, some herbs, a lot of complexity. More on the body side then structure and minerals, but a great example of PN which could be a perfect pirate for a Burgundy tasting. In fact, I guessed this could be the Beaune 1er. (18,5/20)

For refreshement and finish, we had some Riesling. The Johann Baptis Schaefer Laubenheimer Riesling 2011 was a textbook Riesling, with a great ping-pong of sweetness and acidity (Süß-Säure-Spiel, as we like to say in german) great balance and minerality. I remember lemons, orange and some notes of candy and caramel.

The Karl Schaefer Wachenheimer Gerümpel Riesling Kabinett 2008 is going thorugh a strange phase, were acidity is too dominant. Karl Schaefer is producing a classic style Riesling, but the other 2008 I had were much more balanced. This bottle needs to leep another year or so.

This was a great evening and hopefully we can drink and discuss more often face-to-face and outside of virtual reality. Nothing better then to share a good glass of PN with friends!

Joachim was kind enough to organize and invite me to a tasting with his group of wine
friends. The theme, of course, was German vs. Swiss PN and we decided to taste
wines of the 2009 vintage. We did not agree beforehand on the wines we would be
tasting, in order to make have it blind (as much as possible). In fact we did
not even agree on some sort of selection criteria, so that the Swiss and the
Germans were indeed selected on the basis of a different logic, as you will
read below.

We tasted 8 wines: we had 3 Swiss + 3 Germans + 1 Burgundy + a pirate,
as Joachim called it (the complete list you can find below)
I knew the Swiss ones (since I brought them) but had no idea about the others.
Joachim and his group knew that one of the Swiss was a Gantenbein, but had no
idea about the others. So, for each of us it was about halfway double-blind.
After we started tasting we were told that the pirate was a Brunello from a
recent vintage.

The tasting was very interesting, but we also enjoyed very much the company and had
many discussions not wine related, so that I ended up writing rather sketchy notes. What follows are rather general remarks, nothing very profound or very precise:

First some comments about overall differences:
1. the Brunello was easy to spot (no surprise - and if we hadn't guessed right
at least that one I would not be here reporting about the tasting...);
2. on the basis of the comments I had read about German PN I was expecting
to be able to spot them, but this turned out not to be easy. In the end I was
not able to group German and Swiss wines according to a "national" style -
presumably because such a thing just does not exist. As I will explain better
below I was able to correctly spot two Germans out of three, but this was more
because I had identified the wines I knew - then by subtraction I also got two
Germans right.
3. I misidentified the Burgundy, but again, Burgundy is not just one style,
and I had no idea of producer or village or vineyard.
4. I identified correctly two (I mean individually) of the three Swiss I
brought, and not because they have a common Swiss style, but because I knew
the wines.

What about quality? I will not offer a ranking, but just some comments
on what I liked and what I disliked:

1. I chose the bottles I brought with the aim of presenting some of the best
wines I know. Tasting them blind and together with several others did not bring
bad surprises: as mentioned I identified two of them (Gantenbein and Luzi)
which means I liked them blind also. The one I did not identify correctly
(Markus Ruch) was because I thought it was the Burgundy (which is a compliment).
I won't say anything more about the Swiss wines and would rather leave it to
Joachim to comment on them.

2. Joachim and his friends explained that rather than bringing the top German
PN they knew, they brought three bottles of very good producers but in different
price ranges: one was around 10 euros, one around 20 and one around 50.
In short: I liked very much the most expensive one, less the other two.
For the cheapest one (Ziereisen) I liked the nose but not quite the palate,
which was rather light and uninspiring. The one in the middle price range was
a Becker,one of the most famous producers (and in fact the only one of the
three I had heard about). I thought that this one did show the style I was
expecting from German PNs: a masculine wine with good concentration and power.
In my notes I had comments of this kind but added also that it was lacking
acidity. After unblinding and giving it the benefit of the doubt I could not
really change my mind. My fellow German tasters also were a bit disappointed.
The expensive one, the Heger, was an excellent Pinot, full, concentrated and
elegant at the same time. Blind I thought it was the Hallau Choelle, the Swiss
one which has a bit this kind of style (and which I like).

3. The Burgundy was not very impressive when tasted blind and certainly did not
stick out but for the color, different from all others (the only one clearly
tending to purple). I liked very much the nose with red berries mixed to a
warm bread note, but the palate, after a fruity almost sweet entry and good
midpalate had a drying finish. After unblinding and more time in the glass, it
definitely improved, with a fuller, rounder palate all the way to the finish.

Finally the list of the wines (all 2009 except the Brunello) as they were
served (in pairs), with a short remark on what I thought they were

1. Weingut Sprecher von Bernegg (Jan Luzi), von Pfaffen-Calander (CH- guessed right)
2. Weingut Ziereisen Spätburgunder "Tschuppen" (DE - guessed right)

3. Domaine Dublere Beaune 1er Cru Les Blanches Fleurs (FR - mistaken for DE)
4. Weingut Friedrich Becker Spätburgunder "B" (DE - guessed right)

5. Agostina Pieri, Brunello di Montalcino 2006 (IT - guessed right)
6. Weingut Dr. Heger Ihringer Winklerberg Spätburgunder Großes Gewächs
(DE - mistaken for Markus Ruch)

7. Gantenbein, (CH - guessed right)
8. Hallau Choelle, Markus Ruch (CH - mistaken for Burgundy)

In addition we had the bonus of two fine Rieslings:
Weingut Karl Schaefer Wachenheimer Gerümpel Riesling Kabinett 2008
Weingut Johann Baptis Schaefer Laubenheimer Riesling 2011
But since I was in the company of Riesling experts and they came after so many reds, I won't attempt giving any comments other than that I thoroughly enjoyed both of them.

I hope Joachim will soon add his comments on the tasting, and wish to thank him once
more for a fantastic evening.

The first off-line meeting of this forum?
Whether first or not, it happened and was great fun, and the motivation to organize
this tasting came from the discussion in this thread about German and Swiss PN.
Well, the discussion was based on "virtual knowledge" since I had never tasted
a German PN and Joachim only one Swiss PN (Gantenbein).
We continued our discussion offline and ended up meeting last Sunday in Berlin,
where Joachim lives and I happened to make a short visit for work reasons.
This short post is just to warn you that the following one contains a relatively
long description of the tasting - you can happily ignore it if you are not
interested in German or Swiss Pinot.

Gravitas 2004 Marlborough NZ Pinot Noir

Believe this winery went bust but I've kept a few of these from a full case. Previously had a lot of charry, toasty, dominant oak which gave smokey, strong coffee, flavours. Some age has mellowed the wine nicely. Still plenty of smoky vanilla chewiness but very nice, and very cool, red and black raspberry fruited spectrum and also some nice cherry cough sweet notes. Quite a bit of drying, chewy tannins and mineral finish. Plenty of life ahead here. Have 4/5 more and will wait a while before trying another.

A vote also goes to Alto Adige's Pinot Nero. My first wow moment was about 2 years ago with an older J. Hofstatter version (I think it was a 1990), it was showing perfectly, at a premier or perhaps lesser grand cru level. So last night opened a bottle from St Michael Eppan 2004. Opened rather tight and reserved, but continued to develop over the evening. I'd align it with perhaps a premier cru Gevrey. Only thing, it was a bit high in alcohol (14.5%) based on how I felt after 2 glasses, but on the palate it was balanced. This bottle could easily go another decade.

Hi Stefan, and thanks a lot for the insider information!
I visited the region last Spring for the vinotiv tasting and fully agree with you that it's beautiful. This year the tasting will be on June 3. but I am afraid I won't be able to come. Next time I will also stop by at the Ochsen bistrot.
Last February I also made short private visits to Boner, tasted his Pinot Noir and bought a few bottles of his Completer (current vintage: 2000). I also visited Jan Luzi, whose wines I like a lot, and who indeed has a Clos (von Lindenwingert).

No, I don't know the Italian PNs. I tasted a few months ago one from Cantina Tramin and was not very convincing, too much oak. Perhaps it was too young. I'll have to taste more of them.

Thank you Gilberto. I am living close to the Bündner Herrschaft and know some producers and their wines. My experience is that the Barrique Pinots from a good producer in a good year can age without problems for 10 years. But if the vines can age much longer I cant say. You can try to find older vintages in the bistro Ochsen who is also the home base of the Producer Donatsch in Malans. And I will tell you and the other forum members an insider secret. The Vinothek of the Ochsen has a very interesting vine collection, including older Burgundies. Some years ago we drank vines from d’Angerville from the 80es there!
In the last 10 years the quality level improved a lot in the region. Every autumn one of the four villages has a vine event with open cellars with the possibility of tasting most of the vines in an organised vine tasting. Last Year it was in Malans and I liked most the pinots from Fromm and Studach.
As you discussed this above you can find other Producers with the same or similar quality level as Gantenbein with much better prices. But Gantenbein has an important role as promoter for the region as he is one of the few Swiss producers who is exported and known abroad. The villages of the Bünder Herrschaft and their vineyards are really worth a visit, nice landscapes and villages. Some corners have some similarities with the Cote d’Or with Clos like vineyards.
Do you know also the Pinot Neros from Alto Adige (South Tyrol) or Oltrepo Pavese?
Saluti
Stefano

Many thanks for this Gilberto!

I went to an interesting tasting today with a 11 year vertical of Studach from Malans.
So far my only chance to answer from first hand the question: how do the Swiss PN age?
My impressions:
2010-08: all quite good and young. 09 clearly showing less acidity in comparison to the other two, and 10 perhaps not yet "settled" but showing all the good qualities it has. Studach thinks that the 08 is closing down, but I found it quite approachable and enjoyable.

07 clearly less enjoyable than the previous ones and not "young" anymore, with hidden fruit on the palate and prominent acidity. Perhaps in the middle of the "closed" phase?

06-04 All open, mature and balanced, with 05 the most enjoyable, more forward of the three.

03 Warm vintage and it shows, heavy on the palate.

02-00 02 the best of the three, balanced and nice but more subdued than the 06-04 triplet. 01 was probably a weird bottle, a bit oxydativ on the nose and not pleasant on the palate either. 00 was very reticent on the nose but quite nice on the palate, fresh and still with fine fruit.

Conclusions drawn?
Studach is himself saying that one should drink his wines either young (1-2 years) or after 5 years, when they reach maturity. I can understand this but did not see very clear evidence of a difficult "closed" phase between these two (well, 2007 maybe).

OK, if the second, mature phase comes at 5-6 years of age, how long does it last? 04 is 8 yrs old now and was in excellent shape. 02 was also quite nice. But 01-00 did give me the impression of being in a decaying phase.
But Studach explained that he changed to Burgundy clones after 2000, and this is a process which takes a while: those vintages were all dominated by the Swiss clones.
So perhaps the older vintages now are not representative of how the current young vintages will age. Anyway, the tasting did not provide the motivation to wait a long time before drinking these wines. The good news is that one can either enjoy them young, or from about 5 to 10 years of age, which is quite a good span, when they seem to be at their peak. And perhaps one might keep one or two bottles to be drunk after 10 years of age, just to keep experimenting.

Mark,
Yes, I should have mention Evesham Wood - really lovely lacey style wines for really reasonable prices.

I very much like the Bergstrom wines which are on the fruitier side of the Oregon pinots I've tried, but they still have a focus and structure I find less often in Cali pinots.

Bergstrom and Broadley share grapes sometimes and each make wine from the others grapes and that is a very interesting difference: I find the Broadley wines to be harsher, more tobacco-y like NSG. They age really nicely. The Bergstroms are sweeter at the outset, but I've never had an older one (I'm still eeeking out slowly some of the 2001 and 2002 Broadleys).

bmcq; regarding Oregon; I recently attended a tasting of thirteen Oregon Pinots. It was interesting to note that they ran the gamut from big, bold, fruity; to soft, elegant, and silky. Oregon Pinots have often been compared to Burgundy in that they are not the fruit bombs of California but can show the fruit and elegance of Burgundy. It's also interesting in that the terroir of Oregon is so different from Burgundy. It has no limestone. It's soils are either volcanic or sediments. Both do contain clay.Of the thirteen wines we tasted the ones that stood out were from Bergstrom and Evesham Wood. The 2009 Bergstrom De Lancelotti Vineyard showed big dark forward fruit. It was well balanced but slightly massive. This could be compared to a young Gevrey Chambertin. In a few years this will shed it's fat and show beautifully. On the other end was the 2009 Evesham Wood " Le Puit Sec" vineyard Pinot. To me this was the "wine of the night" It was soft, elegant, well balanced; showing light cherry, and raspberry taste. The finish was long and complex. It is beautiful to drink now but will become more complex with age. This wine could be compared to a young Chambolle Musigny. If you can find it,try it. The 2009 vintage in general (Oregon),delivered mostly bold wines with alot of flavor,the result of a hot summer.The 2008 season was near perfect. It shows wines with power and elegance.Most of the wines being produced in Willamette are being produced organically and some biodynamic. The best can rival Burgundy.
As far as California, I have had some Pinots from Valdez, Hartford Court, and Copain wineries which were 8 to 9 years of age and have shown beautifully. Not old by Burgundy standards but still showing well after a few years of age. These are small winemakers from Russian River valley who make beautiful handcrafted wines mostly with native yeasts in a Burgundian fashion. I'll have to see how they age in years to come. These are made to be consumed within 5 to 8 years after release. If you can find any of the wines I mentioned, try them and let me know what you think.
Mark

I've ranged over a variety of Oregon and California pinots. In general I think the Oregon pinots can come out too tannic or green and the Calis just get too fat and fruity.

But those are the shallow generalizations. I'm permitted a few, right?

Of the California pinots I like that maintain more spine and "skin" flavors I'd point out Littorai, Hirsch and Peay. Of the Oregon pinots I've liked I have to admit that Domaine Serene, despite having a fairly uptight and unfriendly tasting room, does make a good wine. Paul Scott does a good job as does the Carlton Cellars (Roads End, etc). Broadley has made some really great wines and some dogs, but their Claudia's Choice from the ealy 2000s have aged well. Willakenzie merits mention as do Brick House, Cristom, Ken Wright, Patricia Green and Bergstrom.

Which segues to the question about how we handle these wines. I do occasionally buy a bottle to consume that night but if I buy more than that I generally do the same as for the burgundies: sample one and store the rest to forget about them for a few years. I've found that the big cali fruitbombs go flat quickly but most of the Oregon and the Peay/Littorai/Hirschs do well with age.

Very interesting questions - living in England actually makes access to all sorts of Pinot Noir quite easy since a lot of companies are specialized in wine gift delivery and our local stores also have a great deal of offer. I have to agree with Joachim - it is a matter of taste and of a personal feeling for me. Sometimes I can't drink wine at all and sometimes I enjoy a Pinot Noir from a very early stage and sometimes a very aged one. It always depends on a few things like mood, dish to serve the wine too, do I just drink the wine to enjoy and relax - but I will definitely think about it a bit more since the topic is a very interesting one and deserves personal observation.

At second thought, I like to add to more grape varieties/regions that have that certain magic.

I'd say that Sangiovese reaches a peak and a magic in Tuscany and especially in Montalcino like nowehre else.

And german Riesling from Mosel, Nahe and Ahr is something very unique and transcendental as well. There is no other white wine (at least to my knowledge) that reaches such a level of elegance and subtle struture. I think it even beats white Burgundies in matter of elegance and multilayers. Some might say that they miss the body and the power in these (often sweet) Riesling wines, but thats especially the quality I'm looking for.

After all, its a matter of taste, as so often. But I think most Burgundy and PN lovers will understand what I mean.

Mark, thanks a lot for the detailed comments!
Well, as you can imagine this was not just by chance. I did research a bit beforehand and followed the advice of a knowledgeable person I met on another forum. I could order from internet (K&L, again as suggested) and have the wine delivered to friends I visited.
They are all still young (06-09), so I will wait.
The Evenstad Reserve was by chance: the only Oregon PN I came across in California, and when I saw it on the winelist of a restaurant I ordered it!

Gilberto, sorry I overlooked your mention of US pinots. Your short visit to the US resulted in your tasting and purchasing some of the most sought after and difficult Pinots to obtain! How did you come accross thes Pinots?
In my opinion, Rhys Pinots are THE "cult" Pinots to obtain in the US! Rhys estate has five Santa Cruz Mountain vineyards. Each has a distinctly different soil and geography. The model at Rhys is clearly Burgundy and more specifically DRC and Dujac. Several of the vineyards are planted to close spacing using many of Dijon and California heritage clones duplicating the clonal diversity or selection massale approach in Burgundy.100% whole cluster fermentation is used. Their Pinots are less than 14% ETOH. This makes these Pinots less appealing for early drinking and I would suggest at least 5 to 7 years of cellaring before drinking. Waiting for these Pinots to come around is worth it.
Freestone Vineyards is owned by Joseph Phelps Vineyards, known for their famous Cabernet: Insignia. They make everything "first class" including their Pinots.This is a state of the art winery making hand crafted beautiful Pinots also less tha 14% ETOH.
The Domaine Evansted Reserve is a "top of the line" Oregon Pinot, made from a blend of their best vineyards. Their winery is one of the mostmodern and technologically advanced in Nort America.The winemaker is French trained. Their Pinots are elegant, complex, and layered with fruit. They can be consumed young but will reward those wait. Gilberto, I also agree with you about Nebbiolo. I also have a passion for Barolo and Barbaresco.

Mark, I did mention US in my first post!
I just did not taste enough of them to be able to comment. Last year I made a short visit to California and had a chance to try a Freestone, a Russian River Pinot Noir (I don't remember the producer) and a Domaine Serene Evenstad Reserve. I did take a few bottles of Californian PNs home (Rhys, Peay and Freestone), but did not try them yet.
Next time I'll visit, I'll try to taste some of the bottles you mention.

Joachim: very interesting story about the 50-year old German Spaetburgunder, and the fact that the best bottles were from one climat.
I will now send you the article.

I also agree about Nebbiolo - the difference with respect to PN, however, is that Nebbiolo is not grown anywhere else in the world (at least with visible success).
So, the question I am asking here (why/what is unique in Burgundy for growing PN), would become even more extreme for Nebbiolo: why only Piedmont?

Gilberto, I think its always a benefit to taste a wine directly where it grew. I remember some bottles of Canary wine which tasted great at La Palma, but where awful back home. So maybe the Suiss PN simply tastes better in Switzerland and the german PN better in Germany. About the price: 50 Francs for a Gantenbein PN is a good price and would be around 40,- Euro - exactly the price I was willing to pay. And it was a good idea to taste it agains a Bernstein wine, because regardind his prices, every other wine looks like a real bagain, haha!

The whole New World PNs (I would add here American, New zealand and Sotuh Africa) are something different again. I quite like them, and I agree with Mark that they give real pleasure in the range from 10 - 20 Euro. Easy accessible, often very silky, and round but I miss the special magic and complexity I find in Burgundys. I had some Californian and Oregon PNs, and it was a pleasure, but not really memorable. But again, maybe they taste better in the States - or I just had the wrong bottles.

The discussion about the aging potential of German PN is a long one. My personal experiences were not so good, so I stopped cellaring the German PNs and just drank them in a range of maybe five years. But I remember an article about a a big comparitive tasting where mature Burgundys and Spätburgunder were tasted - some where more then 50 years old. And it seems, that the german PN outlived most of the Burgundys. To be fair: The german PNs were very well cellared and never moved, and it was a german tasting. Still, there seems to be potential in some climats (Most of the winning wines were from Assmannshäuser Höllenberg) By the way, I would be very interested in the article you mentioned. My mail: joachimfriedmann(at)gmx.de

And, last not least, I agree again with Mark, the only other grape variety that is on a similar level in terms of excitement and 'magic' would be Nebbiolo from Piedmont.

This exact discussion is in the recent issue of Decanter.Guy's you are forgetting New World Pinots from the US! There are some incredible Pinots being made in Calif. and Oregon.There is a significant difference in terroir from different regions and this is indeed shows in the wines being produced. Oregon offers wines which are Burgundian in style and have been mistaken in blind tastings especially as they age. David Adelsheim, a pioneer in Oregon, makes Pinots that are elegant and silky. His Elizabeth's Reserve 1993 has matured along the lines of a Beaune premier cru of the same vintage. Drouhin makes wines in both Oregon and Burgundy. Their Cuvee Laurene compares well with Clos des Mouches. Another incredible PInots from Oregon are those made by: Scott Paul, Youngberg Hill, Evening Land(Lafon from Burgundy is consultant) and Tony Soter, to name a few.
In Calif. great Pinots are made from the Central Coast (Santa Barbara) to the North Calif. Coast( Anderson Valley). The extreme differences in terroir shows in the wines from these different regions.The wines with the biggest style(tannin and fruit) come fron Russian River Valley. The wines of Willams Selyem and Kosta Browne are always rich and bold. These are not your Burgundy's, but are incredible in their own right.
Anderson Valley, California's most northern AVA has cool climate Pinots which can have both fruit and elegance. The Pinots of Copain, Goldeneye, Black Kite, Auteur, just to name a few, are beautiful handcrafted Pinots which evolve in the glass layer by layer.
The important factor in producing great Pinots in the US is not soil! It is climate. It is the cool fog which is along the coast which gives Calif. Pinots their acidity and the warmth which gives the fruit.
This is not Burgundy, but the US is producing great Pinots which can compete with Burgundy in making their own name. The only problem, as with Burgundy, is that they are in limited supply. Right now prices are reasonable with most US Pinots, except those that are considered "cult". It is just a matter of time for the rest of the world esp. China, to discover New World Pinots before the price starts rising. If you "guy's" across the "pond" have a chance to taste some good US Pinot, grab it and let me know.
Mark

Although my experience is relatively limited, I would argue that a producer like Hirsch in Cazadero is making wines in a style not too far from that of cote d'or, and wouldn't be afraid to lay bottles down for ageing.

Other than Burgundy the only other region that I regularly drink Pinot Noir from would be New Zealand. I always feel that it offers much better value than Burgundy in the £10 to £20 range, and therefore fits quite nicely into what I call my 'everyday drinking range'.

I find that on the whole New Zealand Pinot Noir's are fruit driven with gentle tannins but which are food friendly. Producers that I would recommend would be Ata Rangi, Huia, Mount Edward, Burn Cottage and Spy Valley.

I'm not really sure whether New Zealand Pinot Noir's are worth ageing for 10 years+, probably because they are so delicious when they are young or with 2 or 3 years bottle age.I think that what you do get is consistency year on year which is a good thing, but I do wonder whether individuality is sacrificed as a result?

On advantage that Burgundy does have over other regions that plant Pinot Noir is that it has lots of old vines to work with which certainly adds a level of complexity that I've not generally found in other Pinot Noirs.

I think that Pinot Noir from Burgundy is unique and the only other grape variety/region that is on a similar level in terms of excitement and 'magic' would be Nebbiolo from Piedmont.

Mark

Joachim, thanks for your reply. Here are a few comments and, well, more questions...

First of all, you say: "you can’t cellar them so long". Could you be more specific?
Is this statement based on enough past experience that you would
not even bother now to try and cellar current vintages (which perhaps have
reached higher quality than in the past)?
Sometimes I wonder whether other excellent PN also have a "dumb phase", which people erroneously interpret as them being over the hill.
Or are experienced tasters able to predict with confidence whether a wine will
reemerge out of a dumb phase? (I just do not know).

I don't think that Swiss PNs are overrated/overpriced. I am having a lot of fun
discovering them on my own. As an Italian living in Switzerland,
this has been a wonderful surprise (also, at least I cannot be blamed of patriotism ;-).
As far as prices are concerned: Gantenbein's ex cellar price must be around 50-60 SFr. Retail's price can vary considerably, but one can find it around 70 SFr. A few other producers dare to ask a price just above 50 SFr. for their top cuvees, but more typical prices are in the 20-40 SFr. range for very good bottles. To me this is quite reasonable.
Of course if you buy them in Germany they'll be more expensive (transport + higher VAT) and less competitive (which might be the reason why most of them do not export).

Since you mentioned Gantenbein explicitly, let me add a little personal experience. Since the price is indeed high and to protect myself from the hype,
I decided that I would taste it blind for the first time.
I opened a 2009 bottle together with one of Studach (also Swiss) and a Gevrey-Chambertin (village) of Olivier Bernstein, both from the same vintage and tasted them blind
together with my wife. Bernstein was the most expensive of the three. All three were really very good, but the Bernstein was the one we liked less (and Gantenbein most).

I haven't tasted any German Spaetburgunder yet and look forward to doing it soon.
Incidentally, you might have seen an article on a comparative and blind tasting
of German and Swiss PNs against Burgundy which appeared on the Sonntagszeitung
on October 9 2011 (I don't find it online anymore, but I have the pdf if you are
interested). The tasters were Swiss, but I think they were quite fair: overall they rated
the Burgundy highest. Even if the best were in the price range above 100 Fr.
they rated the Chorey-Les-Beaune Pièce du Chapitre 2009 of Domaine Tollot-Beaut (which costs 31 SFr.) higher than the best Swiss and Germans. On average Germans were also rated higher than the Swiss.

Anyway, I did not mean to focus this thread on Swiss and German PNs as possible
competitors/alternatives to Burgundy, and would love to hear about other PN
producing regions.

If you want the underlying question I have in mind is whether Burgundy is really
unique or whether there are other sites on earth where excellent, perhaps even
"magic" (not necessarily by being similar to Burgundy) PN can be made and
which are waiting to be discovered.
Does anybody have an answer?

Thats an interesting subject. Living in Germany, I’m interested in the local PNs, of course. And, indeed, we have some very good producers, especially in the Baden area around the Kaiserstuhl and in the Pfalz. They differ quite a lot from the Burgundy Pinot Noirs, less acidity and less tannins most of the time, and you can’t cellar them so long, moreover a warmer and somehow dusty quality, not the crystalclear structure of Burgundies. Maybe the best comparison is a Pinot Noir from Alsace, they have something in common.

Still, they are from great quality sometimes. I remember a private tasting with Clive Coates where we tasted different Gevreys (from Village to grand cru) and had a mature Spätburgunder (that’s the name for Pinot Noir in Germany) from Becker as a Pirate. Clive guessed it was a Nuit St. Georges. Leading producers are Friedrich Becker, Adeneuer, Huber, Heger, Meyer-Näkel or Ziereisen. Great German climats for Spätburgunder are Malterdinger Bienenberg, Assmannshäuser Höllenberg or Ihringer Winklerberg, to name some famous ones. I really like them very much, even if a comparison to true Burgundies is often difficult. I prefer to see them as something really different.

I like the Suisse PNs, too, but I think they are pretty much overrated. I drank the Pinot Noir form Gantenbein two times, which is supposed to be the best, and I have to admit that it’s a lovely wine. But the price around 80,- Euro is way too much. I think the Suisse people are pretty patriotic, and they are so fond of the idea that they have a producer that can compete with Burgundy, that they are willing to pay literally every price. I’d see the Gantenbein PN maybe on the level of a VR Village (which is still great!) and would accept a price of 30,- - 40,- Euros. But for 80,- Euro I prefer to buy a Gevrey Grand Cru, or a great Echezeaux. German PNs are better priced, by the way. You can get a real good bottle Spätburgunder for 10 – 20,- Euro ex Domaine. An exception (as always) are the Pole Position cuvees, some can cost you around 100,-

I wonder how many of you drink Pinot Noir also from other regions and where you would rank these (roughly speaking) in reference to the burgundian classification (Grand Cru, Premier, down to Bourgogne).

Also, what drinking pattern do you follow for these "other" PN? Only early drinking or do you enjoy these also after substantial aging? Do you find some "magic" also in aged PN from other regions?

A little background to this question: my love for Burgundy is relatively recent (about two years) and has developed in parallel to a discovery and appreciation of Swiss PNs, especially those from the Buendner Herrschaft (Rhine Valley, about 100 km south of Zurich). Not from direct experience yet, but I read a lot recently also about the high quality of German PNs. Of course there many other better known PN producing regions (US, New Zealand etc.).

The motivation for this post is a bottle of Czech (Moravian) 2007 PN which I bought last year in Prague (having not known that they produced any PN before) and I drank and enjoyed yesterday. This PN (like the Swiss) is not exported and so cannot represent an alternative to Burgundy in the international market, but for locals they do and so I would be curious to hear about other experiences.

Perhaps some answers to my questions are provided by Lewin's recent book?